sub blown?!

[starshooter10]

i just blew up my sub AGAIN!

any idea's on why?

i have a pioneer deck paired with a kenwood 980W (bridged)

it WAS hooks up to some generic 1000w 15... i melted that voice coil....

then i got a sony xplode 12" 1200w and i just RIPPPED the voice coil off the cone.... +_O

that speaker has an RMS rated well over what the AMP will push...



*sigh*

any-one know of a box design that will fit on the rear deck?

*my audio phile gramps said that the sub probally had trouble breathing

[baravelli]

*my audio phile gramps said that the sub probally had trouble breathing

Yup!

[JCG1]

If you're MELTING voice coils and not tearing stuff up - it's likely an electrical or impedence problem.

Tearing and ripping on the other hand sounds like an enclosure issue (check what the mfr recommends re: venting given the internal db you're pushing.
Was the forming on the coil that "ripped out" also melted or heat damaged? If it WAS electrically compromised (and therefore overheating) that would possibly cause delamination, etc. in that area (but not in the other areas where you might see mechanical failure typical of an enclosure problem).

You sure you have them wired right and that you aren't mixing 4 and 8 ohm, or aren't improperly using one or the other given what the amp is sending?

On one more hand: you running this system at "11" ALL the time? You'll burn the coils up if you are running the amp close to it's max ALL the time. If you find yourself up at "11" (this is a spinal tap joke for those not getting it) regularly you need more power, captain. No set of speakers (that are not horribly mismatched - as in overcapable in relation to the amp) will survive being constantly driven at the top end of an amp for long.

one last thing: the SUB is supposed to be blowing YOU, not the other way around. Oh wait, this isn't the candy shoppe. :lol3:

[baravelli]

i melted that voice coil....
DC clipping
and i just RIPPPED the voice coil off the cone....
Over-excursion
Nearly sixty years ago, Marconi and Altec-Lansing developed low frequency reproduction systems that would make stone walls of theaters four times the size of modern cineplexes quiver and shake...with only 60 watts RMS.
Let Gramps fix it.

[starshooter10]

well... my 15" was 1000 peak with like 400 RMS

and i melted the coil and found my woofer stuck out

.... bad clipping




this 12" (upon further instection)

this on blew when the amp pulled the coil back in... but the box was sealed too well and the glue between the cone and the coil ripped

(i guess when he said to seal it he didn't mean with RTV gasket maker LOL!!!)


maybe i'll go ported next time +_O


any-one ever make a box for the rear deck??

it's not very big but if i stuff it....

4' w 10" tall 18" deep

i would like to get 1 or 2 12's up in that area....

[baravelli]

Obviously, 12 and 15 inch sub-woofers are too small. I would try an 18".
Or you could go with a bass-reflex enclosure...like the luggage compartment.
Let Gramps fix it.

[starshooter10]

bah... ima hit up a sub forum... =-P

[iMPY]

or you could just use a REASONABLE amount of power and turn down the gain to a REASONABLE level. if it's clipping then you are trying to fit a elephant through the eye of that needle. just reel it back. my friend has one of those sony 12's and we are feeding it just around 200 watts RMS and trust me that is more than enough to rattle his little bubbly cehvy.

also, i have managed to discover that placing even two 10's under the rear deck in my box is much more direct power than the deck can handle. 30 bucks worth of dynamat and rediculous bracing measures couldnt eliminate all of the panel rattle. some of you may like that crap but i have my 1000+ watts divide up among several channels.

also, what freq do you have your speakers tuned to? i keep my subs at about 45 hrtz and that seems to be a good balance for the mid and low bass in my car to cross at.

[bmc357374]

just curious- what is the frequency response for the subs and what cutoff do you have set on the amp? while i dont think it would cause the particular problem you have it could blow subs if you are feeding signals to them that they arent designed to produce

[baravelli]

The generic 15" sub woofer may have overheated due to DC clipping or over use and melted. bmc357374 is right. The second 12" died from over excursion. Lower frequencies propogate and then radiate from the edges of the cone. Higher frequencies radiate from the center of the cone. Feeding a sub woofer with high frequencies at volume will tear the cone from the coil and/or the spider. The tuned cavity resonance of the enclosure will also affect efficiency of the speaker at particular frequencies.
Let Gramps fix it.

[starshooter10]

the 15 did over heat from clipping...
the 12 ripped out because the SEALED box i bought i SEALED with silicone so it could not breath (to much pressure behind the cone when it pulled back)

(both times the amp was set to a 125hz cut off)

[starshooter10]

i figured the subs would be too much for the deck...

im afraid i'll blow out my 6x9's with the pure shock

[starshooter10]

any other ideas on where i can place the subs?

[mephistopheles]

any other ideas on where i can place the subs?

I have a suggestion. . . . :P

[starshooter10]

any other ideas on where i can place the subs?

and if so TELL ME

lolz

~Vince

[baravelli]

Some audiophiles recommend sealed enclosures to sub-stantially reduce secondary harmonics for a 'tighter' bass sound. Others recommend ported enclosures to improve efficiency for a 'boom' bass sound.
Chevys & Fords.
I use a ported bazooka for moderate subs and the luggage compartment for large subs.
Let Gramps fix it.

[baravelli]

OK OK. On my 2005 CV Sport...
There are three holes in the passenger lid frame. I cut out the two 5 X 7 holes for the new 6 X 9's. Those new tri-axials are mounted above the passenge lid liner and tilted forward 15 degrees with thick polystyrene gaskets. The mounting screws are secured to thick plywood on the bottom of the lid frame and never touch metal. I cut out the third hole for a moderate 6" sub in a ported 12" bazooka tube. The sub also mounts above the lid liner. This solution is not for everyone. Looks cool but takes all day to install and the sub-woofer is on the driver half of the lid. What'ya expect...it's a Ford.
Let Gramps fix it.

[bmc357374]

i love my setup in the car. its basic but it hits extemely hard (hard enough your eyes vibrate). Pioneer P3800MP head unit pushing two 5x7 Sony Xplode 4-ways in the doors and the matching Xplode 4-way 6x9s in the rear deck. The head unit lets me turn off all bass to those speakers (cutoff at 150 Hz - so technically they still put out a few bass frequencies). I have a kenwood amp that pushes about 1000W peak running two Rockford Fosgate Punch 12"s in a vented box. Amp cutoff is 150 Hz (subs designed to handle 20-200 Hz). Couldnt ask for better.

[starshooter10]

i love my setup in the car. its basic but it hits extemely hard (hard enough your eyes vibrate). Pioneer P3800MP head unit pushing two 5x7 Sony Xplode 4-ways in the doors and the matching Xplode 4-way 6x9s in the rear deck. The head unit lets me turn off all bass to those speakers (cutoff at 150 Hz - so technically they still put out a few bass frequencies). I have a kenwood amp that pushes about 1000W peak running two Rockford Fosgate Punch 12"s in a vented box. Amp cutoff is 150 Hz (subs designed to handle 20-200 Hz). Couldnt ask for better.




you have my setup (almost)

i have pioneers in the rears

lolz

you wanna post some pics of you box(es)


~Vince

[JCG1]

Hey, get a room if you guys want to show each other your . . .
OR a stereo forum at least.

et tu, Chico :lol3:
p.s.
Let gramps fix it.

[92CVRhodeIsland]

*sniffles* i miss my system..i had 2 12" kicker comps in a ported bandpass with a 1000watt amp and a nice deck...used to bang nice untill jealous people had to break into my car and steal it..and its not the first time...

if u wanna stop blowing speakers buy quality subs(yes sony explodes r garbage IMO) a quality amp (make sure everything will work nice together)and tune it right:up:

[bmc357374]

ill put some pictures up of it tomorrow. and xplode speakers arent bad but i dont think much of the xplode subs. the best subs are either punch stage 3's or memphis audio

[iMPY]

alright. firefox keeps crapping out on me so i decided to use wordpad to organize this and because of that i went over board.

[copy/paste-a-thon]

Caps:
1 Farad Punch Capacitor

Amp's:
200-Watt Dual head unit
100-Watt Dual 2 Channel
100-Watt Dual 2 Channel
120-Watt Phase Linear 2 Channel
300-Watt Visonik Mono
300-Watt Visonik Mono

Front Channels:
(Dash) 2 x 1-1/2" Tweeter (High-pass) @ 20 RMS, 100 Peak
(Door) 2 x 5-1/4" 3-Way @ 20 RMS, 50 Peak
(Under seat) 2 x 6 1/2" Sub (50htz and below) @ 20 RMS, 100 Peak
Rear Channels:
(Deck) 2 x 6-1/2" 3-Way @ 20 RMS, 100 Peak
(Trunk) 2 x 6-1/2" Sub (100htz and below) @ 60 RMS, 120 Peak
(Trunk) 2 x 1-1/2" Tweeter (High Pass) @ 60 RMS, 120 Peak
(Trunk) 2 x 10" Sub (45htz and below) @ 120 RMS, 300 Peak

All of my components are either Dual or Visonik, and i don't want to hear any crap from anybody who says Dual sucks 'cause i like em just fine :) my walmart stereo is MORE than capable, and it lights up like Chinese New Year so that's the main selling point for me.

[\copy/paste-a-thon]

i would LOVE to see some pics of other people's installs, i dunno why but car audio fascinates me immensly. we need a new thread for this crap, lulz.

:)

[baravelli]

1 Farad will start your car.

[bmc357374]

well...i do have a few pics of my install here:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2366336/2
ive rewired it since those were taken so it looks neater now. ill still get new pics tomorrow

[iMPY]

nice setup, BMC. right now my wires are set straight, but my audio cables need to be re-run the proper way. i had to use a ground loop isolator to take care of some noise i was picking up. im just glad that fixed it for me.

will 1 farad REALLY start my car? i just got the cap from a friend who had it laying around after an upgrade and i really dont know if it'll do me much good or not. i understand the install but not really much else about it. its just a rapidly charging/discharging battery, right? will it take much electrical load off of my charging system when the bass hits hard? is it as good as a second battery?

[bmc357374]

nice setup, BMC. right now my wires are set straight, but my audio cables need to be re-run the proper way. i had to use a ground loop isolator to take care of some noise i was picking up. im just glad that fixed it for me.

will 1 farad REALLY start my car? i just got the cap from a friend who had it laying around after an upgrade and i really dont know if it'll do me much good or not. i understand the install but not really much else about it. its just a rapidly charging/discharging battery, right? will it take much electrical load off of my charging system when the bass hits hard? is it as good as a second battery?

1 farad caps are good for approx. 1000W of power. amps can be draining on the car battery which in turn puts a load on the alternator. so adding a capacitor into the mix will relieve the strain on the battery and thus the alternator as well. ur right about a capacitor acting pretty much as a battery. When the bass hits it draws power from the cap rather than the car battery. the car battery then gradually recharges the cap. by it doing it this way, yes it relieves the load on the charging system. IMO they are more practical than a 2nd battery because with the 2nd battery comes a way to recharge it when it dies. as for 1 farad starting ur car. well that depends: if the one farad capacitor is holding a charge then technically it would work. otherwise it wouldnt do a thing. I have a 1.2 Farad Cap that on avg holds approx 14 volts of charge

[iMPY]

hmmm. thats interesting. ive heard that 1 farad for every 1000 watts thing before. is that a general rule of thumb, even if my 1000+ watts are divided among several mosfett amps?

[baravelli]

Yup.
Did your installation come with a seperate 8 gauge solid copper B+ wire at the battery terminal to power the audio?

[bmc357374]

yes to the multiple amp question. an example. u have 2 amps pushing a total of 1800W it would be recommended that you get at least a 2.0 farad capacitor. as for my installation and wiring when i purchased all my equipment i bought about 25 feet of red 8 guage copper wire (StreetWirez brand), 3 feet of black 8 guage copper wire (also StreetWirez), and 12 guage StreetWirez speaker wire. I cut everything down to the size i needed and placed an inline fuse up near the battery.

[themerc]

A cap may not be necessary. Have you upgraded your big three wiring?

[VicStang]

A cap may not be necessary.

I agree. I'm running 1,400w in my Mustang with Memphis 3004 and 1000d amps. No cap. I think that the class D amp has a lot to do with that. Much more efficient than an AB amp.

[iMPY]

no, i havent done the big three yet but i have located the cable at the local autozone. should cost me about 30 bucks to get all the connectors and wire, but what gauge should i use?

[themerc]

The biggest possible, I'd use 0 guage if you can find it.

[bmc357374]

it really isnt necessary to go 0 guage wiring. unless u plan on upgrading everything again in the near future theres no point in it. the size wire that u should use is recommended by the amp manufactorer. if it only calls for 8 or 4 guage wire it isnt necessary to spend more on 0 guage. afterall the amp can only draw so much current. so if u have a huge wire and ur amp dont require that u arent using the wire to its full capacity so what is the point? if anything i would recommend against using 0 guage wire unless it is called for incase of surges. granted most amps use fuses, it still isnt a great idea to allow that much current to pass into it. im in my 3rd semester for electrical engineering and unless my classes are a bunch of shit then i wouldnt do it.

[05Stang-GT]

Your contradicting yourself...you say "afterall th am can only draw so much current." Then you say "it still isnt a grat idea to allow that much current to pas into it." You could run 3in dia solid copper to it and it would still only draw the current it needs...surges are in voltage...not current.

[iMPY]

ummm... im not talking about amp wire gauge. im talking about the charging system, grounding straps, and battery leads.

my amps are fed with two 10 AWG wires, and a single 20 amp fuse. that is more than sufficient and if you think me wrond to run that then run the numbers, lol.

[bmc357374]

Your contradicting yourself...you say "afterall th am can only draw so much current." Then you say "it still isnt a grat idea to allow that much current to pas into it." You could run 3in dia solid copper to it and it would still only draw the current it needs...surges are in voltage...not current.

no i didnt contradict myself. let me explain to u. yes the AMP draws what it needs. this isnt the same as the power source having a SURGE. this means that while yes the amp is drawing x number of amps the power source all of a sudden puts out 2x amps to it. therefore there is no contradiction.

excuse me impy i thought u were referring to the amp wiring.

[baravelli]

Two ten gauge wires will start your Terex Unit Rig dump monster truck.
0 gauge ...surges are in voltage...not current. Sometimes you audio guys scare me.

Let Gramps fix it.

[bmc357374]

Two ten gauge wires will start your Terex Unit Rig dump monster truck.
0 gauge ...surges are in voltage...not current. Sometimes you audio guys scare me.

Let Gramps fix it.

true but current and voltage are proportional. remember Ohm's Law where I=V/R ??
increase the voltage without increasing the resistance and u just effectively increased the current....

[baravelli]

It was 05Stang-GT's conclusion that had me perplexed.

[bmc357374]

It was 05Stang-GT's conclusion that had me perplexed.

lol well i guess i quoted the wrong person last time. see what i get for rushing through reading these posts

[baravelli]

Be sure to include two 1/2" shorting phone jacks in your installation. Simply plug in your living room speakers the next time you're down at the river or at a company summer function. Got me a promotion. Boss hated that cheap AM/FM/CD player sitting on top of the picnic table.

[themerc]

ummm... im not talking about amp wire gauge. im talking about the charging system, grounding straps, and battery leads.

my amps are fed with two 10 AWG wires, and a single 20 amp fuse. that is more than sufficient and if you think me wrond to run that then run the numbers, lol.

Yeah that's what I'm talking about too. We're not talking about the amp power wire guys.

Big Three:

1) alternator positive to battery positive
2) battery negative to chassis
3) engine ground to chassis

[iMPY]

anyone know what gauge to go up to for the big three? lol, if not i will just eyeball it and go up as high as is economically possible.

[baravelli]

The electrical 'mains' wire cables are the same gauge on modern Panthers, including the 200 amp alternator P71. Auxillary power cables for lighting and communications are stranded 12 gauge. Cop cars do have an extra engine block to ground connection and ground straps for the engine and luggage compartment lids (sometimes two for the trunk).
Not that any of this will answer your question.

[05Stang-GT]

Good god...I don't even know what I was trying to say earlier....thats what spending 10hrs on 2 quesions of a final and then posting results in :P

[baravelli]

Navy Seal training comes through again.
Current capacities of conductor gauges are log. 14ga=15amps ave/30amps peak. 12ga=20 ave/40 peak. 10ga=30 ave/50 peak. 0ga=125 ave/200 peak.
When someone says 1000 watt amp, the eyes roll into the back of my head and I go back to sleep. Lately, audio power and horsepower ratings are more for marketing with no relevance to physics. Peak power is nowadays measured using a digital pulse for .001 second into a dummy 4 ohm load. That 250 watts peak per channel is really 150 watts average and 175 RMS....or less.
Power above RMS and little things begin to melt and burn.
Audible power above 250 watts and brain cells begin to die.

[bmc357374]

Audible power above 250 watts and brain cells begin to die.

so its probably not good even my eyes vibrate when my stereo is up huh?

[baravelli]

so its probably not good even my eyes vibrate when my stereo is up huh?
There are two directions I can go with this.
!AWESOME DUED!
or...
You have proven my point.

[JCG1]

ah, the lack of a quality education in todays 'utes.
Give it up Chico. You were edging into math there. Notice the blank stares and the chirping cricket noise . . . what'dya mean I aint got 1000 watts a power . . . says so right here . . .

[iMPY]

RMS is the ONLY number that means shit to me, and between all my amps and channels i'm RMS'n at about 480 watts and thats enough for me.

but O M F G does nobody know what to gauge out the big three to? my battery cables are starting to look a little worn around the edges and i figure if i redo the ternials i might as well just do the leads while im at it.

so, what gauge? should i just go to 0 or less even? the crap thats on there now is rough around the edges and birdcaging slightly at the "-" so im starting to get mildy worried. then again, ive got fraying at my injector pins too so whoop de frickin do on that one.

[baravelli]

1/0 gauge seems right. Goooooogle it.

[iMPY]

last time i googled it months ago it just led me back to 'here'

and i say 'here' because the tech article that WAS up ain't up anymore. i'll just go with 0. at the very least, it wont be frayed around the edges.

[starshooter10]

im running a 4GA. from my batt to the AMP...

seems fine!

i would like to work a cap into the system soon....

[99blackvic]

4ga is fine. if you are going to add more amps and plan on going over 1000w rms then go with 2ga.

[baravelli]

Sometimes you audio guys scare me.
Let Gramps fix it.

[baravelli]

The door trim panel speaker aperature (the part with the little holes) is too small for a 6X9" let alone a 5X7". You may find the support panel blocks nearly 1/3 of the speaker excursion area. Trim the back of the panel as much as you can without seriously weakening the center support. Removing the 'baffle' will improve low frequency response.
Slow down when tightening the trim screws. The fasteners are considered non-reusable so be careful or you will be tightening the trim screws forever. Put mastick or audio mat on the tip of screws before attaching them, particulary the speaker and door handle screws. It will help prevent them from backing out and rattleing
Have Fun!
Gramps

[bmc357374]

The door trim panel speaker aperature (the part with the little holes) is too small for a 6X9" let alone a 5X7". You may find the support panel blocks nearly 1/3 of the speaker excursion area. Trim the back of the panel as much as you can without seriously weakening the center support.
Slow down when tightening the trim screws. The fasteners are considered non-reusable so be careful or you will be tightening the trim screws forever. Put mastick or audio mat on those screws before attaching them, particulary the door handle screw. It will help prevent them from backing out and rattleing
Have Fun!

u do realize that 5x7/6x8's are what come in the door straight from ford motor co. right? also i have NO problem what-so-ever with speaker excursion and the door panel. i have excellent speakers (5x7/6x8s mind u) and they dont hit the panel...
maybe ur talkin bout 98+ models?:confused:

[baravelli]

Yup. With my '05, the back of trim panel was flush with top of the new 5X7's. Bass reflected back into the cone.

[bmc357374]

Yup. With my '05, the back of trim panel was flush with top of the new 5X7's. Bass reflected back into the cone.

aahhh ok. then again possibly part of the reason i may not have any problems with excursion is my head unit has the option to prevent low frequencies to get to the door or rear deck speakers (125 or 150 Hz - i cant remember which)

[starshooter10]

yeah.. i have 5x7's and they are fine....

(though i need to re-wire them)

~VAP